From ajq@mace.cc.purdue.edu Wed May 10 14:49:05 1989 Flags: 000000000000 Date: Wed, 10 May 89 16:50:51 -0500 From: ajq@mace.cc.purdue.edu (John O'Malley) To: heberlei@iris Subject: Re: follow up on Quantum (Apple) HD problems Organization: Purdue University Computing Center Status: R Todd, here's some info for you. In article <4267@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> you write: >If you have had *any strange behavior*, please send me a mail message (or post) >and I will post a summary. I really would appreciate your input. We have a lab of twenty-two Mac II computers, each with an Apple-supplied 40 meg internal HD. We opened the lab in January '89, and almost immediately had hard disk problems. I don't have the actual number at hand, but I'd guess that as many as eight of the machines have had hard disks go bad. > symptoms: (ie. won't find disk when turned on in the > morning ...) > >Todd Heberlein heberlei@iris.ucdavis.edu That's exactly what's happened. Our technicians usually open up the machine, power it on, and then nudge the hard disk itself to get it spinning. Once it starts spinning, it runs fine. My understanding is that there is some kind of lubricant in the motor that solidifies, for some reason. This prevents the disk from spinning when the computer is powered on ... and thus, no recognizable hard drive. Since these Macs are in a student laboratory, no important data is stored on the disks. Fortunately. My supervisor (who is also in charge of the computer repair department) has contacted Apple about the problem, and Apple is apparently extending the warranty on these 22 hard disks. MacWEEK had a blurb about the problem with certain Apple-supplied 40 meg drives recently, but I don't remember what supplier the article mentioned. I'm inclined to think that it said Quantum was the supplier, and that Apple is looking into buying Seagate 40 meg drives as an alternative. John O'Malley / Macintosh / Purdue University / (317) mace.cc.purdue.edu!ajq / Specialist / Computing Center / 494-1787 From baer@jessica.Stanford.EDU Wed May 10 15:37:24 1989 Flags: 000000000000 Date: Wed, 10 May 89 15:37:10 PDT From: Paul Baer To: heberlei@iris Subject: Re: follow up on Quantum (Apple) HD problems Organization: Stanford University Status: RO I have a new SE/30 with an internal 40 meg HD, I guess a quantum. It does access periodically when nothing seems to be happening otherwise. Frankly it doesn't bother me in the least (although it surprised me ther first couple of times). I figured every model of computer is entitled to its quirks, and this one seemed pretty harmless. --pb From malczews%castor.usc.edu@oberon.usc.edu Wed May 10 18:47:52 1989 Flags: 000000000000 Wed, 10 May 89 18:49:23 PDT Wed, 10 May 89 18:49:16 PDT Date: Wed, 10 May 89 18:49:16 PDT From: malczews%castor.usc.edu@oberon.usc.edu (Frank Malczewski) To: heberlei@iris Subject: Re: follow up on Quantum (Apple) HD problems Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA Status: R If you are the person I responded to yesterday, let me reiterate that I have seen a larger than usual number of posts concerning the HD40 (3-1/2 inch version) relating to its reliability/failure. Keep this in mind@ -- -- Frank Malczewski (malczews@castor.usc.edu) From ucbvax!unisoft!john Wed May 10 21:50:12 1989 Flags: 000000000000 Date: Wed, 10 May 89 20:57:09 PDT From: ucbvax!unisoft!john (John Sovereign) To: ucdavis!iris!heberlei Subject: Re: are quantum (Apple) disks bad news? Organization: UniSoft Corporation Status: R In article <4254@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> you write: > >I have heard a lot of bad things about the Apple supplied hard disks >(quantum I believe). As a person about to purchase a system, this >bothers me. > >Do quantum drives suck? Have had very good experience with the Quantum 80 MB drives over the last three years; I doubt the 40's are really any different.... >Todd Heberlein >heberlei@leek.ucdavis.edu 128.120.57.26 >heberlei@iris.ucdavis.edu 128.120.57.20 John Sovereign uunet!unisoft!john From chrisj@emx.utexas.edu Thu May 11 10:58:29 1989 Flags: 000000000000 Date: Thu, 11 May 89 12:44:56 -0500 From: chrisj@emx.utexas.edu (Chris Johnson) To: heberlei@iris Subject: Re: follow up on Quantum (Apple) HD problems Organization: U.T. Austin Computation Center Status: R In article <4267@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> you write: > >Follow up: Someone said they thought the problem might be just with >the 40 HD. Also, I seem to recall the problems I heard were with >the small 40 Meg hard disks. I am still very interested in tracking >down the problem (if one really exists) with the HDs. If you have had >*any strange behavior*, please send me a mail message (or post) and I >will post a summary. I really would appreciate your input. > >In the message please include information such as > machine: (ie. se, se/30, II, ...) > software: (ie. 6.0.x, a certain application package, etc) > HD: (size, company, internal or external, etc) > symptoms: (ie. won't find disk when turned on in the > morning, unexplained disk access, ...) > >Thanks, > >Todd Heberlein Todd, I've had nothing but bad experiences with Quantum 40 drives, so I find it odd that so many people were so anxious to leap to their defense. I imagine that Quantum is a good company, since it is only the 40s that have been trouble, but the 40s we've had have been a tremendous nightmare. All of them were shipped in Mac IIs from Apple. The software includes Systems 4, 5 and 6. The failures are not related to the applications in use. The problem is that, if the Mac has been turned off for any length of time (over night, or over a weekend) it will fail to recognize it's disk when it is next turned on. Sometimes you can let it warm up for a few minutes, turn it off, lift the right side of the machine about a half inch off the table and drop it, then turn it on and it'll work. On other occasions, that just isn't enough and you have to open up the machine, remove the hard disk and give it a good hard twist along the axis of the spindle (of course you have to reinstall aftwerward :-). This has happened to every single Mac II/40 we've had (at least 5) and they represent at least two completely different production runs since we aquired them about a year and a half apart. In several cases, we've had to replace the drives two or three times before we finally got lucky (so far, at least). This is just what's happened in my office, I've bumped into many other people who've had the same problems. It sounds to me like the Quantum 40s suffer from some basic design failings since we've seen this happen with both the 5.25 inch and 3.5 inch models. I hope Apple and/or Quantum will decide to do something about this - some of our PC consultants are beginning to liken this situation to the CMI drives that IBM initially shipped with the ATs. Hope this helps, ----Chris From zelenski@jessica.Stanford.EDU Thu May 11 13:24:23 1989 Flags: 000000000000 Date: Thu, 11 May 89 13:22:23 PDT From: julie zelenski To: heberlei@iris Subject: Re: follow up on Quantum (Apple) HD problems Organization: Stanford University Status: R I have 2 80 MB 31/2 Quantum ProDrives. Each installed in vanilla Mac IIs. One (mine :) !) has had no problems whatsoever. The drive is a real screamer and I love it. My SOs however was not so fortunate. It had intermittent booting problems (wouldn't ever make it Startup screen, wouldn't come to Finder if booted off floppy) He had to send it back they fixed it once, had same problem again, and then they replaced his drive. Now he has no problems. julie z stanford u From @RELAY.CS.NET:jackd@copper.mdp.tek.com Thu May 11 15:52:43 1989 Flags: 000000000000 Date: Thu, 11 May 89 15:15:57 pdt From: Jack Decker To: heberlei%iris.ucdavis.edu@RELAY.CS.NET Subject: Re: follow up on Quantum (Apple) HD problems Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton, OR. Status: R I recently had a HD failure on my SE/30. It was a Sony 40Mb which refused to boot up--the light would flash periodically but the drive would not turn over. I lost all data because the unit was swapped out with another Sony. The service guy said the motor was dead. Good luck with your survey.. jack decker From ucdavis!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!unmvax!deimos.cis.ksu.edu!uxc!uxc.cso.uiuc.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!uxa.cso.uiuc.edu!jth90342 Fri May 12 12:23:34 1989 Flags: 000000000000 Article 34733 of comp.sys.mac: From: jth90342@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu Subject: Re: are quantum (Apple) disks bad news? Date: 10 May 89 22:31:00 GMT You have been informed wrong. I have used many Quantum drives and have been impressed with their speed and reliability. The 80Meg Quantum is probably a better bet than the 40 though, since the 80 has an on controller cache that speeds throughput. In 40 Megs, the Quantum is good, but the Conner drive is probably better... Jeff Huber jth890342@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu From ucdavis!ucbvax!decwrl!sun-barr!apple!rutgers!cmcl2!ccnysci!alexis Fri May 12 12:27:02 1989 Flags: 000000000000 Article 34735 of comp.sys.mac: From: alexis@ccnysci.UUCP (Alexis Rosen) Subject: Re: Dead 40 MEG Drives - This could be really bad. Date: 11 May 89 22:39:22 GMT Organization: City College of New York This could be a very serious issue, of at least as much concern as the faulty power supplies in the Mac 512/Plus, or it might not. But I'm concerned because Quantum has a history... read on. In article <2557@phred.UUCP> jeffp@phred.UUCP (Jeff Parke) writes: >After seeing the second replacement 40 MEG drive put in an SE/30 in a >month, and hearing about similar problems from others I work with, I >though it would be interesting to query the net about the prevalence >of this problem. > >The symptoms: > >The HD select light on your SE/30 (or other SE) blinks in a different- >than-normal way when you turn the unit on. You may hear a "clicking" >sound of the HD head moving once or twice. You won't hear the normal >sound of the disk spinning. You can boot the machine from a floppy after >the boot software gives up on reading the HD. HD Setup and other SCSI >software cannot find the HD at all. > >The problem: >The HD is not spinning. > >One "cure": >You deliver a small physical shock to the machine and the HD spins >up and everything proceeds normally. Or if it is really stuck, you warm the >computer up to 80 or 85 degrees and then it responds to a "kick start". > >If you have had these kinds of problems with internal SE hard discs, please >write me directly at address below. I will summarize for the net in a few >weeks. > >...uw-beaver!pilchuck!phred!jeffp {Jeff Parke} Okay, here's the history. Apple used Quantum's 5.25" 40MB and 80MB drives in 1987 and 1988. So did lots of third-party companies, such as Jasmine and CMS. One or more manufacturing runs of the 80MB unit (Q280) were defective. The problem was that grease would drip down onto the spindle of the drive, and when the drive was powered down for a while the grease would solidify. This caused exactly the same symptoms that Jeff described above, and was amenable (for a period of time) to the same solution. Eventually, things got so bad the drive couldn't be "kick-started" at all, at any temperature. Quantum recalled many units from CMS and probably from many other companies as well (though I only know for sure about CMS). They did NOT, however, make the recall public, and it only applied to drives not yet resold to dealers or end-users. I have had to return a number of these drives for service. Recently, CMS started screwing around, and when I inquired further I found out about the recall. I called Quantum and they refused to replace the unit free, even though it was known defective and they had issued a recall on that entire run. Needless to say, I was not pleased by that. Now the new 3.5" Quantum Pro-80 and Pro-40 seem to be quite good, but if they are susceptible to the same problem as the older 5.25" units, I don't want to have anything to do with them. To adapt an old phrase, screw me once and it's bad luck, but screw me twice and I'll never buy from you again... So I too am very very interested in the results of this survey. Since Jeff is doing one already, mail to him, not me, and when he posts his summary we'll know a little more. Let's hope it's not so bad- there are LOTS of those quantums out there... --- Alexis Rosen alexis@ccnysci.{uucp,bitnet} alexis@rascal.ics.utexas.edu (last resort) From @hacgate.scg.hac.com:jphealy@luna.dpl.scg.hac.com Fri May 12 19:11:41 1989 Flags: 000000000000 (5.61++/IDA-1.2.8) id AA27505; Fri, 12 May 89 19:11:28 -0700 Date: Fri, 12 May 89 19:06:53 PDT From: jphealy@luna.dpl.scg.hac.com (John P. Healy) To: heberlei@iris Subject: Re: are quantum (Apple) disks bad news? Organization: Hughes Aircraft Co., El Segundo, CA Status: R > I have heard a lot of bad things about the Apple supplied hard disks > (quantum I believe). As a person about to purchase a system, this > bothers me. > > Do quantum drives suck? > > Should I buy someone elses hard disk for my system (SE/30 with HD 40)? Actually my own personal experience (at both work and home) and info off netland and reviews in industry mag's indicate that the Quantum mechanism is one of the best (if not currently the best) on the market. The major differences I've found is that Quantum drives are less expensive from a third party than from Apple. Some also use cache so they're faster (my experience with LaCie's & Apple's). From vogelei@jupiter.nmt.edu Sun May 14 08:00:00 1989 Flags: 000000000000 Date: Sun, 14 May 89 08:58:17 MDT From: vogelei@jupiter.nmt.edu (Todd Vogelei) To: heberlei@iris Subject: Re: follow up on Quantum (Apple) HD problems Organization: New Mexico Tech, Socorro NM Status: R I didn't see your original post, but I had an apple HD-40 go poof about one hundred dayse into use (10 days past apple's warranty). I managed to get them to replace it free anyway. Also, my case may not be typical, my macII suffered a failed power supply, and main board 86 days into use. It is possible that whatever took out my PS/Main board also weakened the HD-40. I don't know. In retrospect, I would not buy an apple drive just because of the 90 day warranty. Many aftermarket drives give you a year. Just my experience. Todd vogelei@nmtsun From friedman@uhccux.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu Mon May 15 02:48:17 1989 Flags: 000000000000 Date: Sun, 14 May 89 23:48:30-1000 From: Daniel Friedman To: heberlei@leek.ucdavis.edu Subject: your poll on Mac HD problems Status: R Hi, A friend of mine's SE/30 40 mb drive has shown just the symptoms you describe, i.e. intermittently won't find disk when computer turned on. From ucdavis!ucbvax!decwrl!shlump.dec.com!mountn.dec.com!minow Mon May 15 11:50:47 1989 Flags: 000000000000 Article 34818 of comp.sys.mac: From: minow@mountn.dec.com (Martin Minow) Subject: Quantum drive self-seeking -- the truth Summary: I talked with Quantum. Don't worry. Keywords: Quantum Date: 11 May 89 14:18:04 GMT Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Summary: people notice that their 3.5 inch Quantum (40/80 Mbyte) disks occassionally do some I/O without any prompting from the host. They asked why. I talked with my local Quantum technical support person. Here's his answer: The driver uses an optical encoder and servo cylindars to locate data on the disk. The optical encoder uses an etched glass plate bonded to the head mechanism. Servo information is written on cylindars -1, -2, -3 and 835, 836, 837 (these are outside the data storage area). To seek to a particular data cylindar, the drive combines the optical track counter information with the micro-positioning information from the servo cylindars. (the exact values are a function of the desired cylindar number and the two servo values.) As the drive warms up, the mechanism expands and must be recalibrated. Quantum drives contain a thermistor that triggers recalibration when the temperature changes by 2 degrees-Celsius. Recalibration is also done on a timed basis. (Seems to be about every 2 minutes on my drive.) The recalibration requires reading the servo information on both the inner and outer cylindars. This is a low-priority task, and is interruptable by user I/O requests. So, the message is that it's intentional and you shouldn't be concerned. Martin Minow minow%thundr.dec@decwrl.dec.com <- best mail address The above does not represent the position of Digital Equipment Corporation. From ucdavis!ucbvax!decwrl!shelby!rutgers!cmcl2!ccnysci!alexis Mon May 15 11:51:46 1989 Flags: 000000000000 Article 34844 of comp.sys.mac: From: alexis@ccnysci.UUCP (Alexis Rosen) Subject: Re: Dead 40 MEG Drives - This could be really bad. Date: 13 May 89 07:25:34 GMT Organization: City College of New York In article <1961@ccnysci.UUCP> I wrote: >This could be a very serious issue, of at least as much concern as the faulty >power supplies in the Mac 512/Plus, or it might not. But I'm concerned because >Quantum has a history... read on. > > [long description of problems with Q280s] Well, I just talked today with Charles McConnathy, president of MicroNet, and I have some negative data to report. He says that he has taken back very few of the Pro-series Quantums, and he has sold quite a few of them. I'm glad to hear this, since I've got one coming in my IIx... Maybe it's not so bad after all. --- Alexis Rosen alexis@ccnysci.{uucp,bitnet} alexis@rascal.ics.utexas.edu (last resort) From ucdavis!ucbvax!decwrl!sun-barr!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!tektronix!zephyr!midas!copper!jackd Mon May 15 11:52:07 1989 Flags: 000000000000 Article 34938 of comp.sys.mac: From: jackd@copper.MDP.TEK.COM (Jack Decker) Subject: Re: Dead 40 MEG Drives - This could be really bad. Date: 15 May 89 03:22:31 GMT Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton, OR. My SECOND (!) 40 Meg Sony hard drive just went out on my SE 30 tonight. I gotta tell you folks, this is getting old . . . jack decker Tektronix From ucdavis!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!n8emr!cmhgate!f54.n382.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Mark.Bryant Mon May 15 11:53:15 1989 Flags: 000000000000 Article 34880 of comp.sys.mac: From: Mark.Bryant@f54.n382.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Mark Bryant) Subject: Mac-II with intermittant/now dead 40 Meg Date: 11 May 89 12:24:00 GMT Organization: FidoNet node 1:382/54 - The Bull Creek BBS, Austin TX >I am looking at a Mac II with a 40 Meg Quantum which was playing "hard >to get" first and now doesn't want to be found at all anymore. The >green drive light blinks briefly at power up and when booting from >floppy and when running Apple HD SC Setup (which kind find a SCSI-device >on the bus). How old is that drive? If it dates from mid-'87, the following may be relevant: In the October, 1987, technical procedures documentation distributed by Apple, internal 40MB hard drives whose serial numbers are in the range 87105-xxxxx thru 87168-xxxxx are said to possibly be defective in the boot-up process. If you have an internal hd-40 with a s/n in the given range, and it is having trouble booting, you should be able to take it into your authorized Apple dealer and have it replaced. If you have trouble, have the service department look at their 10/87 technical procedures. The DOA code the dealers are supposed to use is 2EV732. -- Mark Bryant via cmhGate - Net 226 fido<=>uucp gateway Col, OH UUCP: ...!osu-cis!n8emr!cmhgate!382!54!Mark.Bryant From ucdavis!ucbvax!decwrl!sun-barr!texsun!pitstop!sundc!seismo!uunet!mcvax!kth!sunic!sics.se!ollef Mon May 15 11:54:08 1989 Flags: 000000000000 Article 34891 of comp.sys.mac: From: ollef@osiris.sics.se (Olle Furberg) Subject: Seagate drive self-seeking -- what is the truth? Summary: What about Seagate drives? Keywords: Quantum, Seagate Date: 14 May 89 01:34:46 GMT Organization: Swedish Institute of Computer Science, Kista Was: "Quantum drive self-seeking -- the truth" In article <102@mountn.dec.com> minow%thundr.dec@decwrl.dec.com (Martin Minow) writes: >Summary: people notice that their 3.5 inch Quantum (40/80 Mbyte) >disks occassionally do some I/O without any prompting from the >host. They asked why. I talked with my local Quantum technical >support person. Here's his answer: > [---] >Quantum drives contain a thermistor that triggers recalibration when >the temperature changes by 2 degrees-Celsius. Recalibration is also > [---] I have an Apple HD40 with a Seagate 3.5 inch drive (Seagate ST-157N). It behaves in the same way, I/O every 20 minutes. It's a bit irritating because I have the HD under my bed. However, if I park the heads the seeking stops. Note: It's in the HD, because: 1. It does not depend on MultiFinder or any exotic inits: I've tried the good old System 3.2 without any inits: it's still there. 2. It continues even if I turn off the Mac Does Martin's explanation also apply to Seagate drives? /Olle PS. Driver software: Apple's HD SC Installer version 2.0 From ucdavis!ucbvax!ucsd!rutgers!att!shuxd!devildog!atux01!jlc Mon May 15 11:55:02 1989 Flags: 000000000000 Article 34894 of comp.sys.mac: From: jlc@atux01.UUCP (J. Collymore) Subject: I need info on these SPECIFIC Hard Drives Keywords: Mirror Tech., Jasmine, Ehman, Osicom, MicroNet, Shamrock, Optimal Date: 12 May 89 19:10:15 GMT Organization: AT&T CSEd/CET, Piscataway, N.J. I am beginning to shop around for a new external hard drive for my Mac SE. I know there has been a LOT of talk on the good, the bad and the ugly of several brands of hard drives for the Mac recently. And I have caught SOME of the discussion, but now I need to get some specifics about specific drives. If you would be willing to share any of your insights on these drives (the good, the bad, and the ugly), especially regarding where they can be bought for the BEST prices, I'd appreciate it. The drives I'm considering I want to get as EXTERNAL drives, and only in the stated sizes (prices are as advertised in MacUser magazine): Mirror Technologies 40Mb at $687, 60Mb at $757, 80Mb at $947 Jasmine: 40Mb at $699, 80Mb at $999 Ehman: 45(+)Mb at $529, 65Mb at $579, 85Mb at $679 Peripheral Land: 50Mb at $850 Osicom (if purchased through MacZone): 45Mb at $635, 60Mb at $745, 80Mb at $885 MicroNet (if purchased through "MacLand"): 45Mb at $569, 62Mb at $699 Shamrock: 47Mb at $585, 60Mb at $625, 80Mb at $695 Rodime: 60Mb at $829 Optimal: 40Mb at $649, 48Mb at $599, 80Mb at $919 If you can share any knowledge/experience on the above drives, please send me e-mail. Thanks. Jim Collymore From ucdavis!ucbvax!decwrl!sun-barr!apple!rutgers!uwvax!tank!eecae!shadooby!mailrus!caen.engin.umich.edu!ruddles.sprl.umich.edu!jfm Tue May 16 17:12:20 1989 Flags: 000000000000 Article 35018 of comp.sys.mac: From: jfm@ruddles.sprl.umich.edu.engin.umich.edu (John F. Mansfield) Subject: Re: summary: Quantum (Apple) HD problems Date: 16 May 89 17:13:00 GMT Organization: University of Michigan, Ann Arbor In article <4313@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> heberlei@iris.ucdavis.edu (Todd) writes: > >I posted a request for HD problems earlier. I also checked with our >local Mac repair guru. Here is a summary of what I found: > >Results from mail in survey: > > could not find | | could not find | > 40 HD on boot | dead 40 HD | 80 HD on boot | dead 80 HD > ---------------------------------------------------------- >Quantum 14 2 0 1 >others 0 2 0 0 > >* The ones that could not find the 40 HD would usually work after a time >to warm up or after a blow (or firm nudge) was delivered to the disk >(sounds like the, "kick the TV" way of repairing things). > Our Materials Science Department just recently received a batch of SE/30s with 40 meg drives and apparaently (this is secondhand know- ledge, so it may not be reliable) the drives were not being recognised at boot up because they were not connected to the Mac! The power supply was conneced but the SCSI connector wasnt! Pretty nifty quality control if this is true. Just thought ya might like to know! Cheers Jfm. John Mansfield University of Michigan North Campus Electron Microbeam Analysis Laboratory 2455 Hayward, Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109-2143. 313-936-3352 From ucdavis!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!xdaa374 Wed May 17 12:18:27 1989 Flags: 000000000000 Article 35048 of comp.sys.mac: From: xdaa374@ut-emx.UUCP (William T. Douglass) Subject: Re: summary: Quantum (Apple) HD problems Summary: Other problems as well (power supply) Date: 17 May 89 02:07:23 GMT Organization: UTexas Computation Center, Austin, Texas We just received as order of 21 Mac IIs (5 for 4 bundle offer.) 6 of them have already died :-(. 1 had a bad Quantum - same symptoms as described earlier. The other 5 have been diagnosed by ComputerLand as defective power supplies. The best guess here is that Apple had a row of bad units from one of their suppliers, and let the defective units through. At least they have been very concerned & indicated great willingness to swap out the bad units. Still, that's not an encouraging percentage. Write if you want, and I'll provide follow-up details. -- Bill Douglass, TCADA "I dreamed I was to take a test, in a Dairy Queen, on another planet." L. Anderson